July 25, 1995 - Part 3
July 25, 1995 - Part 3
(11:40:31) Senator SHELBY. On the third page, your notes from this conversation say "I'm reluctant, I don't feel I can tell you, and then you've got "complaints." Now, this, again, is Mr. Heymann relating to you and Mr. Gergen how to handle this and also some of his judgments; is that right? Mr. GEARAN. Yes. He was, again, giving us his judgment as to what we should do about disclosure of the contents of the note. Senator SHELBY. What's your next words there, is it "reactions of suspicions"? Would you read that? Mr. GEARAN. Yes. It says "reaction of suspicions." I would take that to mean revealed to us, meaning the Department of Justice, I would take it. Senator SHELBY. In other words, the Justice Department was concerned about the reactions of suspicions? Mr. GEARAN. I think that could be a reading of it. I think it could also be that he was aware of the concerns that he had previously expressed to Mr. Nussbaum. Senator SHELBY. Your next note, does that mean basically in all stages, White House has controlled the investigation in all ways? Mr. GEARAN. It says "basically in all stages controlled in all 71 ways. Senator SHELBY. It would be an inference that it was talking about the White House Counsel? Mr. GEARAN. That would be-that's my recollection. Senator SHELBY. That would be the way you would read this? Mr. GEARAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. "They don't feel they can see, is that "say"? Mr. GEARAN. That would be a fair reading. Senator SHELBY. "They don't feel they can say they've conducted an inquiry." Is Mr. Heymann speaking about the investigators, the Park Police and the FBI, up to then and the Justice Department? Mr. GEARAN. I don't know. Senator SHELBY. "They don't feel they can say they've conducted an inquiry." In other words, it was a sham up to now? Mr. GEARAN, Senator Senator SHELBY. Isn't that what he's saying to you? Mr. GEARAN. I would read it as the concerns that he had previously expressed twice about the nature of the search and the concerns that he had expressed to Mr. Nussbaum. Senator SHELBY. He's talking about the investigators, isn't he? Mr. GEARAN. Yes, I would assume "they" are investigators. Senator SHELBY. Your next words say "much too much control from beginning." Could that clip be interpreted as the White House had too much control from the beginning of the investigation? Mr. GEARAN. Senator, it doesn't- Senator SHELBY. How would you interpret your notes there? 275 Mr. GEARAN. It doesn't say White House, but I think, again, it supplements his broader point about the concerns about the nature of the way the investigation was conducted from the beginning, Senator SHELBY. And who was involved in controlling the investigation, the White House Counsel. So you couldn't read it any other way, could you? Mr. GEARAN. I think Senator SHELBY, This is Mr. Heymann who is telling you how concerned he is , as the Deputy Attorney General, about how the investigation has occurred up to now? Isn't that the context of this? Mr. GEARAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. The next words, as 1 interpret your handwriting-you go ahead and tell us what it says, "it was a mistake" Mr. GEARAN. "It was a mistake to rely on silence"-I would assume that's "of low-level investigators when dealing with a highlevel case." Senator SHELBY. In other words, Mr. Heymann was telling you again it was a mistake to rely on the silence of low-level investigators, in other words, the Park Police and others to keep their silence on what kind of investigation they did, which they didn't they're already saying they didn't do much of an investigation. They weren't permitted to do one. In other words, it was a mistake to rely on them to keep quiet about Mr. Nussbaum's not letting them do an ordinary investigation into the White House Counsel's Office. Isn't that what Heymann was saying? Mr. GEARAN. I would read that as the concerns that, again, he had expressed about the search on the 22nd with the various law enforcement officials. Senator SHELBY. Absolutely. That's just what I'm referring to. Senator BOXER. Could I get my time at some point? Senator SHELBY. Drop down just a little more and it says "DG"; is that right? Is that David Gergen? Mr. GEARAN. That would be David Gergen. Senator SHELBY. "PH" is Phil Heymann? Mr. GEARAN. That's correct. Senator SHELBY. By "DG," what do your notes record? Mr. GEARAN. My notes record that David said "we will not release on the recommendation of the Department of Justice. It will be by the Park Police." Again, this was the release of the contents of the note. Senator SHELBY. The contents of the note? Mr. GEARAN. Yes, sir. Senator SHELBY. What does Phil Heymann say? The CHAIRMAN. Senator, let me do this: The Committee has, because you have undertaken a very thoughtful manner of this examination, gone well over the time limit. I'm going to ask unanimous consent, because I think the Senator only has a few more minutes, and if anybody objects, why, then, we'll go to this side. You've already been very gracious, but I think it's-we want the yfacts and so Senator SHELBY. Mr. Chairman, if I could, I'm just trying to finish this. It's not going to be long. I think it's important.