August 9, 1995 - Part 4
August 9, 1995 - Part 4
(13:25:32) Mr. NUSSBAUM. A conversation undoubtedly occurred between Mr. Heymann and I on the night of the 22nd because Mr. Heymann says it occurred, and I have no reason to deny it occurred. But, Mr. CHERTOFF. Yes? Mr. NUSSBAUM. But Mr. Heymann was not bitterly angry at me on the night of the 22nd. He may have expressed some displeasure with respect to getting back to him. This is sort of coming from the hearings, rather than my independent memory, but I do remember no bitter disappointment, no vicious conversation, no statements about misuse of the Justice Department. I remember those things did not happen. Mr. CHERTOFF. Did he ask you, are you hiding anything? Mr. NUSSBAUM. That I don't remember. I don't remember one way or another asking. If he did ask it, I would have answered exactly the way he said I answered, I am not hiding anything. But I don't remember him asking that, Mr. CHERTOFF. That's not the kind of thing that would stick in your memory? The Deputy Attorney General of the United States, someone who you worked through Watergate with together, says to you, as White House Counsel, are you hiding anything. Memorable or not memorable? Mr. NUSSBAUM. You know, it's not the kind of thing Phil would say. Mr. CHERTOFF. You don't think he said it? Mr. NUSSBAUM. I don't think, my best memory is that he didn't say it, but if he says he said it, he said it. Mr. CHERTOFF. He was under oath here, right? Mr. NUSSBAUM, I'm sure he's giving his best memory. Mr. CHERTOFF. I would like to put up the note. In his own handwriting, he has a note, I'm going to put it up here, of this conversation. I understand the note was written months later, Mr. NUSSBAUM. That's right, it was. Mr. CHERTOFF. But do you have any reason to believe that he was lying to his notes? Mr. NUSSBAUM, No, of course not. I think he was putting down his best memory. Mr. CHERTOFF. This was his own conversation, not second hand, not third hand, his own recollection. Mr. NUSSBAUM. Yes, Mr. CHERTOFF. Nine o'clock PH to BN, "you misused us." Mr. NUSSBAUM, But he testified, didn't he, he didn't think he used the words with me, "you misused us." Did he say that here? Mr. CHERTOFF. Let's not confuse your testimony here with your recollection, which is all we're interested in, with your having followed the hearings. I don't want to pollute your memory with your trying to kind of match it up. Mr. NUSSBAUM. I appreciate that. 1262 Mr. CHERTOFF. It's for the finders of fact to match up. It's for you to give your testimony. So the question is this. Looking at this note, PH to BN, quote "you misused us," close quote, written in' Phil Heymann's own handwriting. Did lie say this to you, either exactly or in substance? Mr. NUSSBAUM. No. Mr. CHERTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. We have a vote. Senator SARBANES. Mr. Chairman, 'before we break, I want to correct the record in one respect. Mr. Chertoff said that Mr. Nussbaum and Mr. Heymann worked together through Watergate. I was around at that time, and I think we ought to get it clear on the record, because there was an earlier suggestion that Mr. Nussbaum had worked with Mr. Ben- Veniste. Mr. Heymann and Mr. Ben-Veniste both worked for the Special Prosecutor for Archibald Cox and then it was Leon Jaworski. Mr,, Nussbaum worked for the House Judiciary Committee in the course of the impeachment. So in a sense, they all worked on Watergate, but I don't think it's accurate to say they worked to ether. Mr. Nussbaum worked in a significant position on the staff of the House Judiciary Committee, which was headed up by John Doar and Al Jenner, and Mr. Ben-Veniste and Mr. Heymann worked in the Office of the Special Prosecutor. The CHAIRMAN. That's correct. Mr. CHERTOFF. For the record, I was in college, Mr. Chairman, and I watched it all on television. [Laughter.] The CHAIRMAN. Let the record note all of those facts. We are concluding a vote. We will return. We will stand in recess for the next hour. We will return at 2:30 p.m. (13:29:15) [Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., Wednesday, August 9, 1995, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene the same day at 2:30 p.m., in the same place.] (13:32:08)(tape #10138 ends)