Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Master 10363 Part 1 Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 18, 1973 - Testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) Caucus Room, Russell Senate Office Building, Washington DC
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Senator Ed GURNEY (R-FL). Mr. McCord, in response to a question from Senator Baker you said that you thought that what you were doing in this operation was legal. Now, of course you spent some years in the FBI, didn't you? Mr. James McCORD. Yes sir. Senator GURNEY. And also in the CIA? Mr. McCORD. That's correct sir. Senator GURNEY. You ran your own security company? Mr. McCORD. Yes sir. Senator GURNEY. You were charged at the trial with seven counts as I understand, conspiracy, intent to steal property, entering the Democratic National Headquarters, attempted interception of telephone conversations, and attempted interception of oral conversations as well as possession of a telephone listening device and an oral communications device. Now, is it your testimony that you thought that all of these acts there on June the 17th were legal? Mr. McCORD. As my testimony sir, if I may repeat a portion of it, that the Attorney General had the authority to authorize it. It was my experience that he did in fact authorize wire tapping and other related activity, that were within his purview. That he could and would have turned it down, out of hand at the very beginning of the operation itself, if in fact it were clearly and beyond any question illegal. I was advised that it was ..... Senator GURNEY. But authorizations by the Attorney General for wire tapping are made of course, in connection with say national security cases or crime, trying to find out about organized crime, always in the purview of the attorney generals office. Wasn't this authorization and operation which had to do with the committee to re-elect the president? Hasn't that been your testimony this morning? Mr. McCORD. No sir. (removes his eye glasses) My testimony was that it appeared to me that this operation was really three fold. That it was set in motion while the attorney general was attorney general. Secondly, that the White House was a party to the authorization itself, and to the justification for the operation, because the council to the president had set in on it. Thirdly, that the committee for the re-election for the president was represented in those discussions and that they may have been the funding mechanism for it. And fourthly, because of a time delay here and my knowledge of a relationship of Mr. Mitchell with his immediate superior, my conclusion was that his immediate superior approved and set in motion that operation. Therefore, it had all of those implications to me, that it was just not simply the committee for the re-election of the president's operation, because it began with the attorney general while he was the attorney general. Senator GURNEY. The activities though that you were doing, as I understand this course of events were supervised by Liddy and Hunt, is that correct? Mr. McCORD. They were agents, as I understand it for the attorney general and for the White House. Senator GURNEY. Well that isn't the question I asked. I said that they were the ones who were supervising and guiding your activities were they not? Mr. McCORD. They were the immediate supervisors, but not by my understanding.... Senator GURNEY. And weren't they working for the committee to re-elect the president? (WS James McCord and lawyer seated, filled courtroom behind them) Mr. McCORD. Mr. Hunt ..... (lawyer says "never did") never did to my knowledge. I believe there has been testimony to that effect by Mr. Odle. Senator GURNEY. Who was Mr. Liddy working for, during this period of time we're talking about? Mr. McCORD. I believe Mr. Liddy was had two responsibilities. One as general council originally for the committee for the re-election of the president. And the second one as general council for the finance committee for the re-election of the president.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Senator GURNEY. The activities you have described, that is bugging the Democrat National committee and photographing as I understand documents there, as well as the McGovern and Muskie operations. Those all have to do with political campaigning, didn't they? Mr. McCORD. I think what we haven't discussed here are some of the other things that went into my motivations and to the explanation by Mr. Liddy to me of the reasons for undertaking this operation at the democratic national committee which included electronic photography and those two operations specifically, but the overall operation was not limited to that. Either in the original planning nor in the authorization by the attorney general. Senator GYRNEY. Well did anything you do in this area of bugging or electronic surveillance, have anything to do with anybody or any activity other than political campaigning of somebody? Mr. McCORD. It came into being because of the one of the basic motivations of mine, which I have stated, been concerned with were the violence oriented demonstrators that we previously discussed in testimony before this committee. Senator GURNEY. I don't want to interrupt at a guide, but it would be helpful Mr. McCord if you were responsive to the questions. Did you do any electronic bugging or surveillance that had anything to do with anybody or anything that did not involve political activity? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. You didn't spy on the Russians or the Chinese or anybody like that? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. Well, don't you think at sometime it might have occurred to you that perhaps these were illegal things and really didn't have anything to do with national security? Mr. McCORD. Oh yes, it occurred to me at the time the matters were being planned and being discussed, it's occurred to me since, yes. Senator GURNEY. Then why did you go ahead with it? Mr. McCORD. For the reasons I've, basically the reasons I've stated, but those are not the only reasons. The fact that the Attorney General, the White House itself, and my personal opinion the President of the United States I felt had set into motion this operation. Senator GURNEY. In other words, even though ...... Mr. McCORD. ' Because of the close relationship of Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Dean, the fact the Mr. Dean worked for the president. Senator GURNEY. Even though you, if I'm expressing your thoughts correctly, believed it to be illegal or highly suspicious that it was, none the less because the attorney general in your opinion was ordering this then you ought to go ahead and do it. Is that a fair thing to say? (lawyer heard saying " this is a gray area") Mr. McCORD. Sure, this is a gray area, no question about it. But, because the attorney general in his position and because the white house was involved in it, these matters were the matters on which my decision turned. I realized the illegality under normal circumstances, but I also realized that the attorney general can make matters legal by his signature on a piece of paper or his oral authorization of it, which he does do. In domestic subversion cases and in national security cases where electronic surveillance is involved, and it's been done hundreds of times. Senator GURNEY. I'd like to ask a question about this memorandum that you presented to the committee today entitled, 'Political pressure on the writer to except executive clemency and to remain silent'. Now, as I understand it from the testimony contained in here and other things that you have said, that you were very troubled by the fact that one, you were presented with this business of executive clemency, and promise of your family being taken care of, (James McCord seen cupping ear, in order to hear) and also a job later, that I guess you didn't think this was the right thing to do, or perhaps you weren't too convinced that it would happen and that you also were afraid that perjury was going to be engaged in in the trial, am I fairly stating your reactions about this? Mr. McCORD. Somewhat, yes sir.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Senator GURNEY. Well, it strikes me as very curious that you appeared before the Grand Jury of course before the trial, you were there at the trial. As I understand it, the judge himself expressed indignation during the proceedings at one time that he wasn't getting the full story. You appeared of course before the senate select committee some weeks ago for a whole afternoon, and while we weren't able to cover all of the testimony of course, you did promise us that you would come back and advise us fully of everything that you knew, that you would give us memorandums as I recall. And yet this very important testimony here, which involves executive clemency including the president of the united states we just learn about two days ago. Why the lateness of this? Why didn't you inform us before this? Mr. McCORD. I believe I stated the reason, because it involved directly in my opinion the President of the United States. I think I can answer some of your other questions that you raised here about why I may or may not have come forth before. Senator GURNEY. I'm sorry, ..... Mr. McCORD. Go ahead. Senator GURNEY. I did miss the reply, I'm sorry. Mr. McCORD. I said, because it involved directly the President of the United States, it also involved an individual that I considered a personal friend, Mr. Jack Caulfield. I testified to your committee at the very beginning that this was a rather painful matter for me to come forward with at the particular time that you first interviewed me. I said I had no reluctance in giving the information, that I would do so subsequently and I did do so subsequently, I disclosed it to your committee a two days ago. But, I think primarily it's because it involved the highest officer of the land, the President of the United States.