Watergate Hearings - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) May 22, 1973
Watergate Hearings - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) May 22, 1973
Watergate Hearings - Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 22, 1973 - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) Caucus Room, Russell Senate Office Building, Washington, DC
Watergate Hearings - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) May 22, 1973
Senator Ed GURNEY (R-FL). You mentioned in the statement about the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency) these statements were certainly were very shocking and they involved a new man coming on board the CIA, a change from Mr. Helms to another man and the fact that the new man could be worked with or dealt with that your records may have been able to have been doctored all in this so called CIA cover-up. Would you go into that in more length, where did you get this information? Mr. James McCORD. What I transmitted to you sir and this is the source of it, were the words as I best recall it, transmitted to me, communicated to me by Mr. Alch in the two meetings that I referred to, one at the Monocle restaurant here in Washington, nearby a couple of blocks from here about on December 21st, and the second ..... Senator GURNEY. Now could you describe how that came up, because this is extremely important. Mr. McCORD. Alright sir. Senator GURNEY. Why did you happen to go with him in the first place? Mr. McCORD. My recollection is that I had been called the day before by Mr. Alch, when he had come into Washington to prepare to appear for a court hearing, something to do with a court hearing regarding some I believe some admission or entry of tape recordings of Mr. Baldwin s statements to the press into the acquisition of those tapes by the court, and he first stated that he was planning to see me the day before and then he subsequently called that day before and said "no, we'll meet tomorrow afternoon or meet tomorrow I'll call you" and he did call me early in the afternoon of December 21st and said "why don't you meet us for lunch at the Monocle restaurant, I've got some things I want to talk to you about" and so I went to the Monocle restaurant. Senator GURNEY. And who is us, did he have someone else with him? Mr. McCORD. Well, he had Mr. Bernard Shankman, my local attorney who did meet with us. Senator GURNEY. But he didn't mention to you the subject of the visit? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. Did you ask him? Mr. McCORD. I think he mentioned, my best recollection he said something "we should be talking about our defense at this point", at this time or at this meeting, something along this line, I don't remember the exact words. Senator GURNEY. Go on. (WS Select committee members seated at table, listening to testimony) Mr. McCORD. So we met, I responded to his call and came down to the Monocle restaurant, the three of us sat and he related the questions and the statements that I have read to you here. I don't recall Mr. Shankman participating in this substantive conversation, he may have but I don't recall it. Senator GURNEY. Now, would you recall again what he said specifically about the CIA? Mr. McCORD. Alright sir, I've set it down in writing and I would frankly like to refer to it because I've spent a lot of time on it trying to reconstruct it. Senator GURNEY. I wish you would because sometimes it was hard to follow every word that you were saying. Mr. McCORD. He stated as I best recall that he had just come from a meeting with Mr. William O. Bitman, attorney for Howard Hunt. He stated that he had a suggestion concerning what I use as my defense during the trial, which was that I use as my defense that the Watergate operation was a CIA operation. I don't recall exactly what I said in response except to say something to the effect that you're my attorney, what's your council on this, do you think I should? Senator GURNEY. Go on. Mr. McCORD. And his response was "yes, I think so" and then he proceeded to discuss to ask some questions of me. And he asked me if I could obstensively be recalled from retirement, that is a person once retired, can he be recalled, and I said "yes, I can". And he said, well we can use as our defense, you could obstensively have been recalled from CIA to undertake the Watergate operation then could you? I said "it's technically possible", words to that effect. He said then if so, then my personnel records at CIA could be doctored to reflect such a recall and this is my best recollection of the exact words. (View from behind Senator Gurney of courtroom and McCord testifying)
Watergate Hearings - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) May 22, 1973
Senator GURNEY. Well now, who was going to do that? Mr. McCORD. He did not say. Senator GURNEY. Did you ask him? Mr. McCORD. No, I was listening to the rest of the story. Senator GURNEY. Did you make any comment on your records being doctored to the CIA, after all how long were you there nineteen years? Mr. McCORD. Yes sir. Senator GURNEY. Did you make any comment on that? Mr. McCORD. I think I've stated in my statement here the situation I was in which was essentially one of wanting to hear out, the story what it was all about and I was really trying to figure out what's going on at this point in time. Senator GURNEY. Go on. Mr. McCORD. So I heard the rest of the statements out. The statement during the conversation, and it might not be in this exact sequence of the things I have stated here, but these are the things that were said during the conversation, one statement may have been reversed with another, but these statements were made. (MS packed courtroom, including people standing in the back) Mr. McCORD. He said that Schlesinger the new director of CIA whose appointment had just been announced could be subpoenaed and would go along with it, that was his quote. Senator GURNEY. Schlesinger could be what? Mr. McCORD. Could be subpoenaed. Senator GURNEY. Yes .... Mr. McCORD. and would go along with it. Senator GURNEY. Now did you ask him how he knew this would occur? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. And did he offer any evidence as to how he knew that Mr. Schlesinger would quote "go along with it"? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. Go on. Mr. McCORD. He went on to mention some testimony, he didn't have any paper with him but he went on to mention some testimony by a Mr. Gary Bittenbender, and he recited testimony that he said Bittenbender had given, in which Bittenbender had purported to claim that I told him the day of the arrest that the Watergate operation was a CIA operation. My response was that if such a statement had been made it was perjured testimony or false statement. Senator GURNEY. Why did he bring that up, do you know? Mr. McCORD. I can give you an impression if you want an impression. Senator GURNEY. Yes. Mr. McCORD. Which was and that impression stems from what I later saw in his office, which was a written statement. My impression was that he had received access to some type of interview with Mr. Bittenbender with which such a statement was contained. Perhaps by the federal authorities in some sense. Senator GURNEY. Go on. Mr. McCORD. He said that he could be interviewed, correction he went on to mention the name of Mr. Victor Marchetti who he referred to as writing a book about CIA and he said we can subpoena Marchetti and have him testify about customs and traditions of CIA agents in case they're arrested or caught wherein they're trained to deny any connection with CIA. Senator GURNEY. Well now, how would this help you? Mr. McCORD. My understanding of the reason he was saying it and I recall some rough approximate statement to the effect that this would lay the background, if Mr. Marchetti were called on the stand and asked to testify and would furnish statements to this effect that it would lay a background during the trial itself for any denials that might come up, either by CIA or by the defendants that this was in fact a CIA operation. Which of course it was not. Senator GURNEY. Well of course if they were going to back you up through the director himself they would hardly deny the story at the same time would they? Mr. McCORD. Well, not much went into, there was not much discussion on what in effect the CIA director would or would not say either in responding to a subpoena to testify or in terms of testimony itself concerning the man.
Watergate Hearings - testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord) May 22, 1973
Senator GURNEY. Chairman has reminded me that my time is up, I wonder if I may ask one or two other questions Mr. Chairman on another matter, I don't think it will take very long. Senator Sam ERVIN. (unclear) Senator GURNEY. Thank you. Mr. McCord, how much were you being paid by the Republican National Committee for it's work? Mr. McCORD. Six hundred and twenty five a month as best I recall, $625 to $650 beginning the period of October roughly October 1 through the same period of my employment with the Committee to re-elect the president, the subject of this employment at both locations was discussed with both men who I worked with which included (unclear) and Mr. Odle. Senator GURNEY. This was in addition to the salary of 20,000 a year by the committee to re-elect, plus the 2,000 a month hazardous pay when you entered into the Watergate operation, is that correct? Mr. McCORD. That's correct. Senator GURNEY. Did you receive any pay from anybody else for any activity during this period of time? Mr. McCORD. I don't recall any sir. Senator GURNEY. You did not receive any then? Mr. McCORD. I don't recall any. Senator Ed GURNEY (R-FL). Tell me did you ever participate in any other electronic surveillance activity like this, political surveillance at any time? Mr. James McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. How about in previous years, previous campaigns? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. Did you ever discuss with anybody at the committee to re-elect the president or the White House for that matter, aside from Mr. Liddy this business of bugging the Watergate. My understanding was that your conversations were with him at first, that's correct isn't it? Mr. McCORD. Yes sir, the only two people they were discussed with were Mr. Hunt and Mr. Liddy, and I've stated my reasons for so doing. Senator GURNEY. Yes, but you didn't discuss it at anytime with anybody else? Mr. McCORD. No sir. Senator GURNEY. Did you ever suggest to anybody at anytime in 1972 or 1972 that this would be a desirable operation? Mr. McCORD. Did I suggest it? Senator GURNEY. Yes. Mr. McCORD. Absolutely not. Senator GURNEY. The idea came from Mr. Liddy and Mr. Hunt. Mr. McCORD. That is the first time I heard it. Senator GURNEY. Thank you very much.