Impeachment Hearings: House Judiciary Committee, July 26, 1974 (2/2)
Impeachment Hearings: House Judiciary Committee, July 26, 1974 (2/2)
[01.03.28] Mr. DENNIS. But, you do have to say, if you are charging the man with making false and misleading statements, you do have to say in that on April 14, 1973, he did say to Henry Petersen, Assistant Attorney General of the United States, the so that he will know. He cannot be, required under the Constitution to look back over everything he may have said Sometime that somebody is now going to Say was false or misleading. You have gat to specify to that extent, and there is only one precedent in this particular case, and that is the case of Andrew Johnson. And if you will look. at the articles set forth on page 154 of our own publication, you will find that they were exceedingly specific. On a certain date he discharged Secretary Stanton contrary to the Tenure of Office Act by writing him the following letter. And on a certain date he conspired with one Lorenzo Thomas to make him Secretary of War when--- Mr. DANIELSON. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. DENNIS. I will yield for about 30 seconds, but Mr. DANIELSON. That is about all the gentleman has. Mr. DENNIS. Well, I hate to yield to you then, but I would like an answer to that Mr. DANIELSON./ I wonder if I understood the gentleman correctly at I understood him to say that if we specify these acts in our accusatory pleading, the evidence to be educed at the trial is restricted those items? Mr. DENNIS. Why of course, and that is the whole purpose, and at you want to do is give a man no chance to know what he must et, and then you bring in anything you happen to think of, and it ,not constitutional, and it is not fair, and just because you are a congressional committee you cannot just tear the Constitution up and row it away. And that is what you want to do here. Mr. DANIELSON./ Would the chairman yield 2 minutes to the gentleman that he could yield to me to respond (1, please ? The CHAIRMAN. The time of the. gentleman has expired. Mr. DENNIS. I do not -want 2 minutes to yield to him. Mr. DANIELSON. May I The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from Maine has been seeking recognition Mr. Cohen. COHEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. I recognize you for 5 minutes. Mr. COHEN. If I could, I would like to address a question to the gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Sarbanes Mr. Sarbanes, I would assume that in each of the subheadings under the article that you propose to substitute, and let me say that I think these statements and the conclusions I can agree with most if not all of them, but let me turn to page I under article I, where you list submitted title, 1, making false and misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees-of the United States. Now, -would it be fair for me to assume that you would rely upon certain--Mr. Dennis said essential facts--I would hesitate to use the word operative, facts in this context, but is it fair to Say that You Would rely upon one, two, three or four, specific dates an operative set Of,, facts to support that general statement, the making of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigators? Is that fair', to say that, you have that in mind Mr. SARBANES. Yes, although in most of these. instances, when it is, finally detailed in the the report, I would assume there, would be, many more instances than the number the gentleman suggests--one of the points is that there is a course of conduct, and not a single event. Mr. COHEN. I understand, and -would it be fair to say that you -would., probably refer to the summary of information that has been prepared! by Mr. Doar and Mr. Jenner, such as summary pages 30 through 32 to support that specific operative set of facts? acts Mr. SARBANES. Well, I would assume that the report would go further than that. The report could do that, but I -would also a that the report would spell out the matters I indicated in the response I gave this morning to the gentleman from Illinois. MC COHEN. But the problem that I have had for several months now, and usually with counsel, Mr. Doar and Mr. Jenner, you may,-` recall that at each time we issued a subpena, I specifically asked you, inquired and was always rejected, as to whether or not we might attach a specific justification Which you Set forth in great detail justifying the issuance for those subpena and the reasons why we needed them, and I would just like to inquire, I think I know the answer you will give me, but is there any reason why a document could not be attached to the proposed articles of impeachment, with a phrase to the effect "All of -which is set forth with greater particularity in the appendix attached hereto." In other words, getting into the civil pleading. I happen to agree with counsel, Mr. Jenner, that we are not talkin necessarily about criminal pleading, but perhaps civil pleading and we do have notice of pleading in civil cases and we also have a very -well established doctrine of incorporation by reference. Now, -wouldn't that be helpful in this particular instance? Mr. DOAR. It is my understanding, Mr. Congressman, that this would go along with the material would be included in the report and with articles. Now, whether it is attached that way or attached to the pleading, it is my understanding further really is immaterial. But generally speaking any civil pleading that I have been familiar with, is that you don incorporate this by reference. You furnish it by way Of answers to interrogatories or other discovery, pretrial procedures. Mr. COHEN. But it certainly -would be helpful in this instance to least incorporate by reference several operative sets of facts supporting the general allegation which again I can agree with, that the making of false and misleading statements to lawfully authorized officers, I agree - with that, there were false statements made. I think we can by the simple act of incorporating by reference clear away the probably really. Mr. RANGEL. Would the gentleman yield for a question? Mr. COHEN. I yield to Mr. Rangel, the gentleman from New York. [01.09.23]