Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court Friday October 11, 1991 evening session. Clarence Thomas appears before Commitee after the have questioned Anita Hill about her charges of sexual harassment.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). We will have - Senator Strom Thurmond (R - South Carolina). Mr. Chairman? Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). The Senator from South Carolina. Senator Strom Thurmond (R - South Carolina). I have named Senator Hatch to cross-examine the Judge and those who are supporting him. Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). As I understand it, it was - Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). I think that is correct. I think we would start with Senator Heflin and then go to Senator Hatch. Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). I think that is the way I was - I would be happy to do it, but I think that is the way I was told.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). Senator Heflin. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Judge Thomas, in addition to Anita Hill, there have surfaced some other allegations against you. One was on a television show last evening here in Washington, Channel 7. I don't know whether you saw that or not? You didn't see it. It was carried somewhat in the print media today, but it involved a man by the name of Earl Harper, Jr., who allegedly was a senior trial lawyer with the EEOC at Baltimore in or around the early 1980's. Do you recall this instance pertaining to Earl Harper, Jr.? Judge Clarence Thomas. I remember the name. I can't remember the details. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). The allegations against Mr. Harper involved some 12 or 13 women who claim that Mr. Harper made unwelcome sexual advances to several women on his staff, including instances in which Mr. Harper masturbated in the presence of some of the female employees. The allegations contain other aspects of sexual activity. The information we have is that the General Counsel of the EEOC, David Slate, made a lengthy internal investigation and found that this had the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile and offense working environment, and that on November 23, 1983, you wrote Mr. Slate a memo urging that Mr. Harper be fired. Mr. Slate eventually recommended dismissal. Then the story recites that you did not dismiss him, you allowed him to stay on for 11 months and then he retired. Does that bring back to you any recollection of that event concerning Mr. Earl Harper, Jr.? Judge Clarence Thomas. Again, I am operating strictly on recollection. If I remember the case, if it is the one I am thinking of, Mr. Harper's supervisor recommended either suspension or some form of sanction or punishment that was less than termination. When that proposal - the supervisor initially was not David Slate - when that proposal reached my desk, I believe my recommendation was that, for the conduct involved, he should be fired. The problem there was that if the immediate supervisor's decision is changed - and I believe Mr. Harper was as veteran - there are a number of procedural protections that he had, including a hearing and, of course, he had a lawyer and there was potential litigation, et cetera. I do not remember all of the details, but it is not as simple as you set it out. It was as a result of my insistence that the General Counsel, as I remember, upgraded the sanction to termination.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Do you know a Congressman by the name of Scott Kluge, a Republican Congressman who was defeated by Robert Kastenmeier of Wisconsin, who now serves in Congress, who back in the early 1980's, 1983 or something, was a television reporter for a channel here in Washington and that he at that time disclosed this as indicating that, after the recommendation of dismissal, that you did not move in regards to it for some 11 months and let him retire? Do you know Congressman Kluge? Judge Clarence Thomas. I do not know him. Again, remember, I am operating on recollection. There was far more to it than the facts as you set them out. His rights had much to do with the fact that he was as veteran and that we could not simply dismiss him. If we could, that was my recommendation, he would have been dismissed. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). There was no political influence brought to bear on you at that time to prevent his dismissal? Do you recall if any political - Judge Clarence Thomas. There was absolutely no political influence. In fact, it was my policy that no personnel decisions would in any way be changed or influenced by political pressure, one way or the other. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Now, it is reported to me that Congressman Kluge, after your nomination, went to the White House and told this story and, I hear by hearsay, that the White House ignored his statement, that Congressman Kluge further came to the Senate Judiciary Committee and made it known here. As far as I know, I attempted to check - I have not been able to find where it was in the Judiciary Committee, if it was, and I think the Chairman has attempted to locate it - but the point I am asking is, in the whole process pertaining to the nomination and the preparation for it, were you ever notified that Congressman Kluge went to the White House in regards to this? Judge Clarence Thomas. I do not remember that, Senator. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Nobody ever discussed that? Judge Clarence Thomas. No. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Well, that is the way it has been reported to me and it is very fragmented relative to it, but I have asked that all the records of the EEOC be subpoenaed by subpoena duces tecum pertaining to that, in order that we might get to the bottom of it.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). Mr. Chairman, if I could interrupt Senator Heflin, I really think this is outside the scope, under the rules. I would have to object to it. Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). I would have to sustain that objection. I do not - Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). I hesitate to object, but I just think we ought to keep it on the subject matter. Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). I do not see where it is relevant. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). Well, I think it is relevant in the issue pertaining to the period of time relative to the issue, particularly in regards to the responsibilities as head of the agency dealing with discrimination in employment. Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). Mr. Chairman - Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). If I may say - Senator Orrin Hatch (R - Utah). Mr. Chairman - Senator Joseph Biden (D - Delaware). If I may speak, let me say this is not about whether or not the Judge administered properly or improperly the agency. The only issue here relates to conduct and the allegations that have been made, so I would respectfully suggest to my friend from Alabama that that line of questioning is not in order and I rule it out of order. Senator Howell Heflin (D - Alabama). All right, sir, I will reserve an exception, as we used to say.