Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court - this is edited October 13, 1991. Commitee hearing after the Anita Hill charges of sexual harassment. Panel in support of U.S. Court of Appeals Judge Clarence Thomas from the third panel of witnesses on the third day of his reopened Supreme Court confirmation hearings. Panel includes Stanley Grayson, Carlton Stewart, John Doggett, and Charles Kothe.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). Professor Kothe, just a question or two, and this is following up on what Senator Biden had asked you, and it relates to the testimony which you had given that Professor Hill was very complimentary about Judge Thomas. There has been considerable testimony given by people who have tried to explain Professor Hill's activities in the sense that she was controlled by Judge Thomas when she worked for him, and that even after she left him she needed him for a variety of assistance. But my question to you is did there come a point where she had sufficient independence from Judge Thomas so that a continuation of laudatory, complimentary comments which you have testified about would tend to undercut her credibility that he had said these dastardly things to her early on? Charles Kothe. I am not so sure that I grasped the essence of your question. I don't know that she was ever dependent upon him for adulation. She had a continuing relationship, I think of a professional nature, with the EEOC. She was doing some studies and getting materials from them, and the things that we were working on together, we both derived information from the EEO office. Just how extensive was her continued interaction with Chairman Thomas, I really don't know. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). Well, let me break it down for you, Professor Kothe, to this extent. You have testified that you thought her charges were inconceivable, as I think you have earlier said. Is that correct? Charles Kothe. Yes. Absolutely. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). And you have based that on your testimony that when you would talk to her about Judge Thomas she would consistently compliment Judge Thomas. Correct? Charles Kothe. Correct. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). So, is it your conclusion that if she consistently said complimentary things about him that it could not be true that he had done these dastardly deeds? Charles Kothe. Yes, that would be my conclusion. It is just so utterly incongruent and inconsistent that a person that would speak of him almost reverently as a hero, as a person - a remarkable person, she would say, as a person of untiring energy, she spoke of him, as I said earlier, as a devoted father. I have never heard her speak of him but in pretty much relatively glowing terms. Never have I heard her say anything critical about him, even when we were discussing the subject of sexual harassment. So, in that situation with a person that I respected and a person that I admired, I just cannot in my mentations equate how utterly impossible, grotesque statements could be made about this person that she spoke of to me with such high admiration.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). The follow-up question to that is some have sought to explain her continuing association with Judge Thomas on the basis that she needed him, that he was her benefactor. And my question to you is would it be necessary for her to go as far as she did in the kind of complimentary statements she made to you on a personal basis to maintain that kind of an association where she could go back to him, for example, for letters of recommendation? Charles Kothe. Well, certainly she needed no further letters of recommendation after she established herself as a teacher. She was a good teacher. This is not a young woman that is obsequious and fawning and retiring. She was a very positive person. In our faculty meetings she was forthright. She was always a strong person. She didn't need Clarence Thomas to continue in her career of teaching, which she has done and become tenured at the University of Oklahoma. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). So your conclusion was when she complimented Judge Thomas she meant it? Charles Kothe. I had no reason to believe she didn't. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). And, if she complimented Judge Thomas, it would be totally inconsistent with his having said these terrible things to her? Charles Kothe. Utterly inconsistent. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). And the final point is the one where Senator Biden asked you would she have been reluctant to talk to you in truthful derogatory terms considering the fact that you were in a sense an employee of Chairman Thomas? Charles Kothe. I wouldn't think there was any basis for her having a reluctance to disclose to me anything that was of that nature if, indeed, it were a fact. I think that our relationship was such that she could have confidence in me. I didn't need the position with Clarence Thomas. She didn't need Clarence Thomas to keep the position she had. We were both ad hoc in that sense, working on something that was avocational with us, from the point of view of our then situation. Senator Arlen Specter (R Pennsylvania). Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committe on the Nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court
Senator Joseph Biden (D Delaware). Thank you, Senator. The Senator from Massachusetts indicates he would like to question. Senator Ted Kennedy (D Massachusetts). Just for a moment, Mr. Doggett. When you were at Harvard, did you say you headed the Afro students' organization for student assistance? John Doggett. Senator, what I said was that in the second year I was asked by my co- students to be the chairman of the Education Committee, of what at that time was called the Afro-American Student Union. Senator Ted Kennedy (D Massachusetts). And that was a tutorial program for kids in Cambridge, or what was that? John Doggett. No. Harvard Business School has a program to weed out people that it does not feel deserve a Harvard MBA. It is called hitting the screen. It is one of the most intense academic experiences that they have. The Afro-American Student Union is a membership organization of black American students at Harvard Business School, and those of us who are second-years organized programs to do what we can, not only to prevent first-years from hitting the screen, but to do everything possible to make it possible for them to excel. My fellow students asked me to be the chairperson of this committee and to organize programs for Harvard Business School MBA students in their first year. Senator Ted Kennedy (D Massachusetts). Well, that is fine. I was just interested in whether you were working through the Phyllis Brooks House or community programs. Because the Business School, I believe, has a program. I just wanted to see whether you were associated with it. John Doggett. No, sir. Senator Ted Kennedy (D Massachusetts). Thank you very much.