Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee Hearings on Presidential Campaign Activities, May 18, 1973 - Testimony of James McCord (Jim McCord)
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Sam Ervin (D - North Carolina). Go ahead. Fred Thompson, attorney. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. McCord, I'd like to limit my questions to one area and that's what you know about the planning of the Watergate break in. First of all, I'd like to separate what Mr. Hunt told you someone said about it, from what Mr. Liddy told you someone said about it. Did Mr. Hunt indicate to you that he knew anything about these meetings that Mr. Liddy referred to with Mitchell, Magruder and Dean? James McCord. Your question is did Mr. Hunt indicate that he knew anything about the meetings? Fred Thompson, attorney. Yes sir. James McCord. Yes he did. Fred Thompson, attorney. What did he say about those meetings? Did he indicate that he was present at any of those meetings? James McCord. I'm trying to recall exactly the context of the discussions, if I may go into that I will Fred Thompson, attorney. Yes sir. James McCord. The meetings, as best I recall, in which these references by Mr. Hunt took place, took place in Mr. Hunt's office, in the Robert F. Mullen company offices at 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue. They took place in April and May of 1972, to the best of my recollection Mr. Liddy was present in all of the discussions. Mr. Liddy during those discussions, as best I recall, would raise the topic of the planning and the progress of the operation itself, it's going forward and comments about what Mr. Mitchell was saying to him about what should be done in terms of the priorities of the operation. That is which ones would be done first and second. Mr. Hunt's comments, his exact words I can't recall, but his comments made to me, not to me, made in the three way discussion that were taking place during that period of time, indicated to me that he had separate independent knowledge, perhaps from Mr. Liddy, perhaps from other sources of his own that Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Dean and Mr. Magruder had planned the operations in the Attorney General s office to begin with, and that at least Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Magruder had had subsequent discussions after the first meeting in the Attorney General s office and that Mr. Magruder and Mr. Mitchell had had discussions with Mr. Liddy in Mr. Mitchell s offices at the Committee to Re-Elect the President regarding the ongoing plans to carry out the operations. Does this answer your question somewhat?
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Well, I think it naturally raises several other questions. What did he say as best you can recall to indicate to you that he had any independent knowledge other than what Mr. Liddy might have told him? James McCord. I think he would refer to comments to garden as though "as you and I have discussed before. Fred Thompson, attorney. Well that would not fall in that category then... James McCord. It would fall in that category (very stern) Fred Thompson, attorney. As things that Mr. Hunt had learned separate and apart from what Mr. Liddy had told him? James McCord. It would fall in the category I said two things, I said one what Mr. Liddy had told him before and secondly what it appeared to me he had learned from others. And I've mentioned to this committee a name of another individual but I will not raise it at this point, that Mr. Hunt referred to in conversations in which we were talking about the Watergate operations and the planning for the operations. Fred Thompson, attorney. I think you should refer to it, the name. James McCord. I previously referred to the name of Mr. Colson that was interjected into the conversation by Mr. Hunt in the meetings with Mr. Liddy and Mr. Hunt and me in his offices, Hunt's offices at 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue and specifically when Mr. Hunt had a plan, a typed plan, operational plan for the entry of the Democratic National Committee Headquarters. Beg your pardon.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Do you recall anything that Mr. Hunt said to you about Mr. Colson's involvement or did you just get the general impression that Mr. Colson was involved in some way from what Mr. Hunt told you. James McCord. I believe my previous testimony, which I will re-state before this committee, was to the effect that when I had met Mr. Hunt in his offices at 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue with Mr. Liddy that he had referred to his previous work at the White House for Mr. Colson, referring to him as his superior. That during the session that Mr. Hunt, Mr. Liddy and I had in Mr. Hunt's offices, Mr. Hunt had a typed plan that he had typed himself, step by step, for the entry of the Democratic National Committee Headquarters that at one point he held this plan in his hands and his words were, he interjected the name of Mr. Colson into the conversation at that point. Words to the effect, "I will see Colson" and he held the paper in his hand in this sense. And from that statement, I drew the conclusion that he was going to see Mr. Colson and discuss or give him the operational plan. That was a conclusion, but this is also the words as best I recall in which Mr. Hunt raised the name of Mr. Colson.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Right, well I'm sure that will need to be pursued, but getting back to my original point is that independent knowledge that Mr. Hunt had of these meetings that we're referring to. He did not bring Mr. Colson into the conversation with regard to these particular meetings that you previously referred to, did he? James McCord. I believe you asked me if he appeared to have knowledge, I said that he appeared to have knowledge of the previous meetings of the Attorney General in the Attorney Generals offices, of Mr. Liddy, Mr. Magruder and Mr. Dean and my response was to the effect that he had it from Mr. Liddy, from what he told me and I believed also that he had this information from others.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Well, I don't want to be-labor the point, and I'm certainly not trying to James McCord. I'm glad to answer the questions. Fred Thompson, attorney. You've been, no it doesn't as a matter of fact. You say that you think he had independent knowledge, and of course this is a serious matter and I think we have to determine whether or not we are relying on Mr. Liddy or Mr. Hunt and Mr. Liddy for this information which is course extremely important information. Anything that you can state that Mr. Hunt told you to indicate that he had any independent knowledge of these meetings I think would be very relevant. Whether you can do it now, or you've supplied several memorandums, been very helpful in that regard, you want to do that at a subsequent time, I think that would be appropriate. James McCord. I would be glad to submit a separate memorandum, if that would be helpful to you and give it to you at the next meeting, and set forth in exact detail as I best recall. Fred Thompson, attorney. Anything that Hunt told you indicating he knew about these meetings independent of what Liddy told him. James McCord. Alright.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Now let s get back to the meetings in a little bit more detail James McCord. How many meetings did Mr. Liddy say there were? When the overall surveillance operations were discussed. James McCord. At what point in time? Fred Thompson, attorney. Well, how many meetings overall up until June the 17th did Mr. Liddy indicate that he, Mitchell, Magruder and Dean or any combination of these people had to discuss James McCord. He didn't state the number, it was stated to me in various and sundry meetings with Mr. Liddy between January and June 17th, by Mr. Liddy that he had had several meetings with Mr. Mitchell that they appeared to be ongoing meetings with Mr. Mitchell from the planning stage until the completion of the plans for the second entry operation on June 17th. That there appeared to be continuous discussions between, at least Mr. Liddy and Mr. Mitchell and sometimes with Mr. Magruder, according to statements which Mr. Liddy made to me and they began with the planning and they continued through the ongoing operation itself and the monitoring and the planning for the second operation and discussions at various stages, according to Mr. Liddy of the various priorities of the bugging and photography operations, what was to come first, what was to come second.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Did Mr. Liddy come to you after each important meeting or after each meeting where these matters were discussed and give you a summary of the meeting, and what was discussed and what the conclusions were? James McCord. Not after each meeting at all, but we would see each other regularly, during the week, I'd say if not once a day, at least every other day, most weeks between January and June 17th. Sometimes, he would tell me, "I'm getting ready to go up to see the Attorney General to discuss this operation" referring to the Watergate operation, to discuss the operations that he had planned. Sometimes, he would tell me, "I've just come back from that operation, and here's what we're going to do now". Fred Thompson, attorney. Were some of these meetings, according to him, according to what he told you while Mr. Mitchell was still Attorney General? James McCord. Yes. Fred Thompson, attorney. And some after he came to the Committee to Re-Elect? James McCord. Yes.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
(TC resets to 00:00.00) Fred Thompson, attorney. Alright. Were money figures discussed? James McCord. Oh yes. Fred Thompson, attorney. According to what he said. According to Mr. Liddy what was the original proposed budget for the overall surveillance operation? I assume we are talking about the overall operation, not just the Watergate break-in, is that correct? James McCord. Talking about three categories, political espionage, photography operations, and electronic operations and the original figure in February that Mr. Liddy proposed, as I saw in writing in a draft on his desk at one occasion and in a typed memorandum on a second occasion was approximately four hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Fred Thompson, attorney. Alright, according to him was that budget approved? James McCord. The sequence of the events were that there were planning meetings in January or February or both in the Attorney Generals offices in which Mr. Dean and Mr. Magruder, Mr. Liddy and Mr. Mitchell discussed the original amount, the $450,000 amount and subsequently approximately thirty days after the first quote "formal meeting" that I heard referred to by Mr. Liddy there was a figure of approximately $250,000 which he said had been approved for the operation and he referred also to some additional funds which he had in the order of approximately 100,000 though that figure is not absolutely certain in my mind, which would total about something around 300,000 to 350,000.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. According to him, was this money problem the need for subsequent meetings? Was that a concern of the people involved, was there quite a bit of discussion as to exactly how much money should be spent on this project? James McCord. Money was a topic that he said was discussed. He said the individual operations were discussed that is specifically the three parts of his budget, which he had prepared on charts which he had taken to at least one of the meetings. That is the three parts of political espionage, and photography and so on. It was not limited, the discussion was not limited to the matter of funding. My understanding was all aspects of the operations were discussed in those meetings by the four individuals.
Watergate Hearings: Senate Select Committee on Presidential Campaign Activities - Testimony of James McCord.
Fred Thompson, attorney. Let me just ask you this, did he tell you that John Mitchell ever told him that this budget is just too high and you'll have to do it for less or something to that extent? James McCord. No, no he did not. Fred Thompson, attorney. Did he ever tell you that they specifically discussed the Watergate operations in any of these meetings? James McCord. Which meetings are you referring to? Fred Thompson, attorney. I'm talking about any meetings which he had with the Attorney General when any of these other people were present. James McCord. Oh yes, sure. Fred Thompson, attorney. That the Watergate break-in specifically was discussed? James McCord. Very definitely. Fred Thompson, attorney. Alright, what did he say about that particular discussion? James McCord. It was of continuous discussion. He said with Mr. Magruder from the earliest planning session in February through the first entry operation Memorial Day weekend and then into the second operation in June. And he talked to me at various times and it was clear from what he said that, clear to me that Mr. Liddy was having such meetings, he stated that he was having such meetings in which the Watergate operation was a part, Watergate referring to the Democratic National Committee Headquarters itself. So I would say there were many such discussions by Mr. Liddy with me in which he stated that meetings had occurred with Mr. Mitchell and Magruder specifically on this after February.